Vance Maxwell Interviews Cecil, 2007

TDK C90 Cassette labelled "VANCE INT 2007 (1)"

Transcribed by Daniel MacKay, 2008-03-09.

==Transcriber's Notes==
I've tried as much to preserve "G's" voice here and to notate his speech patterns and where he hesitattes to answer or rephrases himself; I've tried to capture every syllable as accuately as possible in text.  Where he corrects himself, I record that (where the interviewer corrects himself, generally I don't.) I've cut out some of the interviewer's very short interjections, where G does not respond to him. Where he does respond I've included the interviewer's comment in parentheses.  One thing I haven't transcribed is G's Lunenburg county accent where he transposes the R sound into many words such as "warshroom."

Note that G speaks several times of the murder in Camp Hill Cemetery in 1985; it was actually 1988-11-05.

V: When and where were you born and brought up?
G: In Lunenburg county, in a small community, about 250 people.

V: Give details concerning your parents and brothers and sisters.
G: My parents have both deceased, and I have a brother [who] lives in the community, and I have three half-sisters, both in Bridgewater, and one in Ontario.

V: What was your early childhood like at home and at school?
G: It's just normal growing up, you know, I didn't play a lot of the games that the kids played, they played hockey, street hockey, and .. we played just regular games and things.

V: Do you remember yourself as somehow different from other boys?
G: Yeah, I think I was always attracted to guys; 'cause I always liked to look at guys, and fantasize, I guess, about them, and used to peek around different places where they were dressing or undressing, probably to the beach, and beach-houses, things like that.

V: Can you tell us some stories about that?
G: Alright, let me think.  Well, I never really, y'know, never really fooled around with anybody.  I never really come out I guess, until I came to Halifax in, around, sixty-one.  I, we, fooled around, I had some buddies that I used to fool around with, we just masturbated each other, but I think I probably wanted to do more than that, but I didn't do it, and I don't know if I was afraid, or I was... I didn't know what it was all about.

V: How old were you when that happnened?
G: Oh my.  I started as a teenager when we were masturbating, I would think.

V: Like in the early teens?
G: I would think early teens, probably fifteen, sixteen.  I don't think I was younger than that. I don't think when I was twelve or thirteen, I don't think I was doing that.

V: Do you remember your first masturbation experience?
G: I wouldn't remember. I don't even remember what age I was.

V: When you tell us about being different from other boys, was there anything of the behaviour of other boys that suggested that suggested that they saw you as different?
G: Well, they used to - they always referred to people as being "queer". Used to go uptown and they'd say, they'd call somebody -- I hope nobody else can hear us -- they called somebody by name, and they'd say that they were queer or they were a fruit, or ...  but they never used the word "faggot" then. "Fruit" was the word that was used then. But there was a guy, apparently, in town, there was a guy in town, who used to go around blowing everybody, and they said, "You want a good blow job up town, and this person would give you a good blow job."

V: And how old was this person?
G: This person would have been probably in his fifties.  He used to go the Exhibition, and they said when he'd come out of the washroom, he always had cum down over his, down over 'round his mouth. Whether that's true or not, I don't know.  But they always referred to people in town as being "queer." Not "queer" as in "fruity" [DM: not sure about "fruity"] in the terms that we used today. 

V: That's right, because the word "fag".. the word "gay" wasn't really used.
G: No, it wasn't, no.  They didn't know that word - or didn't call you a "homosexual."

V: They didn't know that word.
G: They didn't know that word.

V: Accordingly, did you have an early sense of being gay, of being attracted to other boys? What prompted that?
G: I think that I had that when I was quite young.  I never did anything about it, but I always felt that I liked men. I didn't care much for women, I never paid no attention to women, I always looked at men and looked at their face and down at their crotch (laughs.)

V: So, I mean, you were attracted to boys your own age.
G: I would think, yeah, and little older, sometimes little older people. I would look at older people. I would always look at their crotch.  I guess it was a common thing to do. But I did it discreetly.  I didn't do it that they ever saw me.

V: It was a bad sign.
G: Yes, it was a bad sign.

V: Did you have any experiences of a sexual nature as you now see it, and just take us from the first up through your teenage years.
G: Well, we just masturbated, that's about all. I one time slept with a guy and I 'member I... I think I was suckin' him then,  and he pissed in my mouth! I could have killed him. And his mother came upstairs, and well, she didn't see it, but she come upstairs and saw us in the same bed and course I covered my head over to make out that I was asleep, but I wasn't asleep at all.  But I think he had been drinking, I think that's why he peed in my mouth.  Oh!

V: How old were you then?
G: Oh, I was teenagers then I would think.

V: When you say teen, do you mean fifteen or sixteen?
G: I would say I was fifteen-sixteen I'd think. Yeah, I'd think it was around that.

V: And this is with one boy.
G: Yeah, that was the only one that ever did anything like that to me, and I never really did anything after that cause I thought, "oh god, if that's what everybody's doing when they're suckin' somebody, why, if they're going to piss in your mouth, I'm" .. it turned me off from having sex with anybody.

V: So that was distasteful.
G: Yeah, and then I .. a buddy that used to live in the community, we used to play house, and I'd be the wife and he used to go away on a boat and I used to .. I told that story before, and he'd get on top of me and make out he was screwin' me (laughs) and then I'd have a baby and we'd play house.

V: And how old were you at that point?
G: Oh gosh, I don't remember now, that would be ... I might have been a teenager even then. I would have been going to school.

V: Yeah, you would have been in high school or junior high.
G: Aaah, yeah, see, we had grades from primary to grade five and then we went to what they called the "advanced department."  It was a two-section school, and from Grade Five to nine, I think it was, it was called "advance department."  It was a two-room schoolhouse, like I said Primary to Grade Five,  and then when you went to Grade Six then you went into the other, with the older people, older teenagers or whatever.

V: And did anything of a sexual nature ever happen in the classroom? (G: no) or was there anything said during recess or something like that?
G: No, they used to always like to tickle me. I hated being tickled, and they used to always want'n to pull my pants down to see my bird, I mean it's a couple of times ... and then they'd say, "oh, he's only got a little thing, he's only got a little thing." But you see, I wasn't a fighter, I didn't fight back. If I was a fighter I would probably have given them a punch  or something, but you see I didn't, I was kinda like a coward -- maybe I was enjoyin' it.

V: It could have been mixed feelings. (G: well, sure, yeah.)

V: Did you have any sense of fear, or of being an outcast, or anything like that?
G: No, I'd just be careful, I wouldn't want anybody to... and these people I had sex with, I was afraid that they might say something, or get drunk and say that I was a fruit or a queer, or .. queer and, uh, what is the term, queer and... I guess queer was the only word. They never used anything else.  I just didn't want anybody to know that I was doing that, coz ... you know, in small communities, if they knew you were that, you'd be pinned as a fruit!

V: Did the other boys involved, did they rat on you at all?
G: I don't think they did, I never hard that. At one point, we were .. uh... we were up in a field and there was a girl, she was a community girl, and she just let everybody have sex with her, and I remember a whole bunch of us went up on the hill, to the top of the hill, and then we took our turns and went down and screwed her, and I said...  I remember when I went down, I couldn't even get a hardon. The rest was goin', you could see them pumpin' her, you know, they was layin' down you know, she had her legs up in the air, she had.. I don't know how many guys. I don't know if any of 'em ever got off.

V: How old was she at that time?
G: I don't know how old a woman she would have been. She was probably a teenager. She lived with her father... I don't know, maybe her father was even doin' her, I don't know. She did get eventually... and her mother must have passed away a long time ago, and she kind of became a little prostitute for the neighbourhood, and y'know she'd go uptown and get all kinds of men to have sex with her. She never ever brought anybody home. Father would never allow it.

V: So all the other boys humped her, but you didn't.
G: I couldn't get an erection.  She said, "Oh, what's wrong with you?"   She said, "All the rest got.. were.. screwed me, why can't you?"  See, I knew then I was gay, because I wasn't interested.

V: So did you answer her when she asked you?
G: Well, I don't know what I said, I don't remember what terms I used. Maybe I just said, "Not in the mood" or "Too many people around..." 

V: At what age did you reach puberty, would you say, where you could cum and your penis began growing.
G: God, I wouldn't know that. That's so far away. I must have been a teenager, I must have been.... I don't know if I developed early or not... I can't remember. I cetainly must have been a teenager.

V: But it was so long ago, would you agree that you would have been later than boys [your age] reaching puberty?
G: I would think, yes, I think.
V: Because that's a general fact, (G: yeah) that the age has become younger (G: yeah) over the last forty or fifty years. So you'd agree with that (G: yes, yeah)

V: So how does your experience compare with the experience of other boys, so far as you know?
G: Well, I... I can't think of anything. 'coz if.. I mean, they was always saying about going uptown and screwin' this one and screwin' that one, and whether they were or not I don't know.

V: And did you have the impression that this was bragging..
G: I think they were bragging, they was always braggin'.

V: What about early masturbation? Could you tell us did you, when you started this, did you do it quite frequently?
G: Yes, we'd do it quite often, a couple times a day, probably. We had an old henhouse that we.. went in there, and my brother one time came in on me and said, "Oh I know what's going on in there, you two are al- are in there jerkin' off."  It wasn't masturbation then, it was called jerkin' off.  (laughs) And I said, "No we weren't," and I used to wipe it out .. there was an old tablecloth on there, when I'd come off and we'd wipe it all over the tablecloth, this old tablecloth.

V: You and who?
G: This friend of mine, in the neighbourhood.

V: And was he your age?
G: Yeah, my age. 

V: And so you would masturbate yourself, rather than..
G: Yeah, I don't think we did each other, like...  We masturbated ourselves.

V: And so this tended to be with one other boy.
G: Yeah, I seemed.. we seemed to do that quite al- quite regular.

V: And how did you feel about that?
G: I..  I had no guilty feelings or anything.  I was always afraid that my parents might come in. But we could always hear people comin' . If anybody was coming.. if anyone was coming around we would hear them, and we would stop doing what we were doing. There was a little window there, we kinda, could see people around, around the area.  When we heard my brother coming I just stopped doing what I was doin' ... and he said, "I know you guys are jerkin' off." 

V: And would he join you?
G: No, oh, no, no.  He wasn't into that then.

V: I see. But he became gay later (G: oh, yeah) So he was not involved. Was this a brother younger than you?
G: Oh yes, three years younger.

V: OK, so that would make a difference.  Did you feel guilt or fear as a concsequence or possible consequences?
G: I didn't, no, I just felt good, I felt relaxed.  Like today, now, when it happens today, it's like taking a tranquilizer. It puts me to sleep.

V: What did you hear about the practice of jacking off?
G: We didn't hear about it.  I think we just did it and wonder what- how- I think the other fella did it before and.. and told me if I stretched my legs sort of thing, you know, and masturbated, that I would cum, that white stuff would come out of it.  He didn't call it anything, he didn't say "cum" or ... probably called it jerkin's.

V: Did you hear that it caused insanity or hair to grow on your palms?
G: No,  I had no, there was no... Of course I could never discuss sex at home, my parents never told me anything.

V: Did you have any involvement with boys older than yourself?
G: No, not at that time, no.

V: Did you fantasize about other boys or men through that period?
G: I think I did, I used to look at people and I would wonder what they had there, and did- was theirs bigger'n mine sort of thing, you know. So there was some, I would say some fantasy there.  And I never, I didn't think about it and masturbate thinkin' that "Oh that one's got a big one" sort of thing.

V: Did you see them naked at the swimming pool?
G: No, well, they'd go into dressing rooms and I'd be peekin' through the cracks or whatever.

V: Dressing rooms where?
G: At a beach, at the beach area.

V: So you would peek through and see them dressing or undressing?
G: Yeah, I could see them.. Lots of times I couldn't see anything. I think they were aware that somebody was peekin' through the cracks or whatever.

V: Were they older boys? (G: They were older, yes.) Like, how old?
G: Oh, I don't know, probably s.. much older than me. (V: eighteen or twenty?) They would be... they were teenagers, but they were advanced teenagers.

V: So you didn't see them naked.
G: No, I never seen any of them naked. (V: so, this was at the beach) yeah.  And then I had somebody in the community who used to, aaahh, want me to blow him?  He used teaberry on his di... penis and of course I remember he wasn't even cut. He had one of those sealed up cocks.  And he told me if I didn't suck it he'd beat me up.

V: What's teaberry?
G: Teaberry is like a... like a wintergreen?  type of thing? (V: oil of wintergreen?) Yeah could be, but it had a teaberry taste. (V: and he put this on his..) He put it on his penis and made me suck it. He never got off.

V: So his foreskin would not retract.
G: No.

V: You've already spoken of this but you might want to say something more. Did you have any sexual feelings towards girls or any early sexual experiences with them?
G: No, I wasn't interested in girls.

V: So you were 100% gay.  
G: Well, I was then and I didn't probably realize it.

V: And the situation has not improved.
G: No, no, I still like men.

V: Considering your early manhood and life in Halifax, how did your sexuality develop from puberty into your twenties?
G: Well, I came to Halifax probably I was in my early twenties, in 1960.  I didn't do anything that first year, well, I came in the latter part of '60, so it was actually '61 , probably in the summer in '61 when I started goin' out cruisin' and doin' all the things. And... people always.. and my brother and I were always at the beach and they were always saying we had beautiful bodies.  They were puttin' the make on us I guess we didn't realize it at the time.

V: Who said this to you?
G: Somebody at the beach.  (V: younger or older?) No, older than us (V: older men) yeah, saying we had beautiful bodies and everything like that. They were puttin' the make on us and I guess we couldn't see that.. we couldn't.. we didn't know about it then and then as time went on, and I can't remember, in the, in.. the summer of '61 that I started cruisin' around. I didn't do anything, I think I just fooled around. Coz I 'member I was workin' with somebody and they said, "Oh we're goin' to Toronto" and they was sayin' all the ones they was doin' all in the night before and I said, "You mean suck somebody's dick?" and they said, "Yes" and I said, "Isn't it dirty?" and they said, "No it's clean, they wash it, and keep it clean."

V: Where did you have these sex experiences in Halifax?
G: Well, I had 'em mostly in cars, I got picked up in cars.

V: Where were the cars? On the Hill? Or..
G: Aaahh. The Triangle. There was a triangle there and then down around, ah, oh, I guess on the Hill too I picked.. I got picked up on the Hill quite a bit.  Actually done some of 'em up there, when I first started .. ahem.. I think they took me and done me first, and then as the time went on then I started, thought I'd like to try it, so I tried it. I acquired the taste [laughs.]

V: You acquired the taste.  Did most of this happen on the Triangle, or did you meet somebody at the Triangle?
G: I don't think I met too many people at the -- I met a few people at the Triangle.

V: When you say Triangle, you mean the area of Dresden Row and Queen Street meeting at Sackville?
G: Yes.  I got picked up several times there. I always got picked up with ministers ... I would ... United ministers, they seemed to be the target, they always want... I spoze they were lookin' for these young guys, and here I was a younger guy, they weren't.

V: They would pick you up at the Triangle and take you somewhere else?
G: take me somewhere, yes, and park.

V: And so when was that? In the sixties?
G: That would have been around '61

V: And so the Triangle was active sexually at that time?
G: Oh yes, active yes.  I can't remember when it stopped, I don't recall.. the.. area wasn't any more.

V: I would say the eighties.
G: Maybe.. maybe.. I would say seventies, could have been into the eighties, I can't remember. Of course that area all built up, you see, with highrises. (V: highrises and gentrified I guess) More restaurants and whatever. Stopped being .. 

V: Do you think that development is what drove people away from cruising the Triangle?
G: Oh I think, yes, too.  And people started cruisin' on the HIll and hustlin' up there and everything.

V: Did they cruise on the Hill, and so on right from the time you came to Halifax?
G: Well, I didn't go up on the Hill then.  I didn't go right up on the Hill right away, I was doin' the streets downtown, I didn't go up on the Hill, I didn't know... I thought it was dangerous up there. I.. I.. It *wasn't* dangerous, then, but I guess I was scared it was dark and I didn't know what I'd meet from one end to the other.  See one time the cars went all the way around.  All around, twenty-four hours.  

V: When you say you were doing the streets downtown, what streets do you mean?
G: Well, that area, I used to do Barrington Street once in a while, even down as far as what was called Buckingham Street then, it was the old, it's where the Sco.. where Maritime .. not Maritime Mall, uh, Barrington Inn is, Barrington Stores, well, right down there it was called Buckingham Street and and that would be a good cruisy area from there up to probably Spring Garden Road. I out .. I did that area quite a bit, down around the park, right by the Nova Scotian Hotel, down by that area, parks. 

V: And did you have experience in the Nova Scotian Hotel?
G: Well yes, many. Many.  Many many many!  Too numerous to mention.  

V: Did you ever have any trouble being caught at the Nova Scotia Hotel?
G: No, I never got in any trouble, I never got put out of there or anything.

V: Would you cruise at certain times of the day?
G: Yes, I'd be there practically... quite a lot during the week and I had one regular on Saturday, we'd have our fun, have our cake and eat it too.

V: This would be at the washroom at the south end of the Nova Scotian near the railway station?
G: Mmmm yess... I believe it was the one behind the desk. That was kind of a favourite spot. There was two doors you went through, and then the other one at the upper end, which was a, was a bank nearby, and then of course that changed over then eventually. That had two doors too, that would be a squeaky door to come in and then eventually they put oil on the doors so they'd jump in there so quickly that you had.. you know, you could get caught if you wasn't quick enough.

V: Did they have different systems of foot movements and so on telling you what they were looking for?
G: Oh yeah. There was a lot of pen-pal-ing, notes, notes, writin' notes, "How big is it?" and "How old are you?" and so.. that kind of thing.  We used to call it "pen-pals."

V: Was there any problem with police or security patrols?
G: No, there was secure.. never seemed to be around. The hotel people that worked at the hotel were aware of what was goin' on coz they used to go in there and get done too.

V: So they'd come in and be done and go back to work (G: go back to work sort of thing) And would that be mainly in the daytime or the evening?
G: Mostly day, I never went much around in the evening, I stayed away from that area in the evening.  Coz it was bars there and I didn't know what kind of people'd be around.

V: So in the evening you'd tend to do the Triangle? (G: yeah) And the Hill late (G: yeah - up to three and four o'clock in the morning.  It was daylight sometimes.)

V: What role did moving from your home near Bridgewater to Halifax in 1961 play in your developing gay identity and sexual experience?
G: Well, I think it, it opened it up to the fact that I was in a bigger city, and was more chance of making out, and nobody knowing about it. Not, you know, people in the community wouldn't suspect that I was in to Halifax suckin' dicks, see, and I wouldn't them to know, I wouldn't even want my parents to know.

V: And what were your impressions of the gay scene and opportunities in Halifax in your early years living here?
G: Well, it was pretty active, like I say, all hours of the nigh... all hours in the... wouldn't make any difference if it was three o'clock in the morning went up on the hill, there was somebody up there lookin' for it, come from a bar or come from a party or whatever. I've had some good experiences. Never had any bad ones.  That I ... well, I had a couple, but (ahem) those were later years.

V: So your impression with the gay scene was positive, and it was very active, and it was 
G: There was no gay bashing like it is today.  Maybe the odd person got beat up or somebody was drunk or...

V: Now is that something you saw, or that you heard about?
G: I saw it, some of it, and I just got out of the area.

V: And did that happen on the Hill?
G: That happened at late at night, but somebody down over the hill doin' somebody and then somebody started to fight with someone.. or woke up, pretended they were sleepin' or they wherever and then they, like, they felt guilty and then they started beatin' up on people, and then everybody would scamper of course.

V: Where would they go?
G: They'd just go to the lower part of the Hill, and then people would leave, like leave the area altogether, not come back, maybe, maybe not come back that night or maybe even go home, I don't know.

V: And that would happen late at night.
G: Yeah, that would be late at night.

V: You did feel a liberation from your situation in Bridgewater.  Were there any gay bars or baths at that time? And we're now talking about the early-mid sixties.
G: I think the only bar.. bath that was open at that time was not 'til 1972, that's when the Apollo was opened, in '72, and closed .. two years ago? it was going in '72, '82, '92, 102, it was over thirty years that it's been in operation.

V: Can you tell us something about the Apollo developed as a gay .. (G: wel, it was always gay) But how did it change over the years?
G: Well, it would, of course you got different people. People died, and then more people came in. More people, people have died, and more people have, have, new people came, came in there. Lot of married people, I mean they were in there, getting their rocks off just as well as anybody else. And, and it, it, you know, sometimes you had regular people, some people would even ask if you were there. I was so good that they wa- they wanted to have repeats.

V: You were in demand.
G: We always referred to it as "referral service."  And I guess if you didn't know, I .. someone referred to me that I "had my papers", that I had my degrees, and laughed.

V: That happened through your years' experience.
G: Through a friend that used to mention it, no - I won't mention the name, but (ahem) ... used to always joked about it and then when told the person, at the time that I was doing the person, the person would start laughin', thought it was funny that somebody be suckin' a dick then, knowin they say they got their papers. I don't have my papers, that was just a little carry-on joke that we had.

V: Citadel Hill has long been a cruising place for gay men and for hustlers and gay bashers as well. Can you explain how you discovered the hill, and what went with it in those early years?  Now, you said something about it, but you might have something to add.
G: I... I.. I can't think. I think people used to talk about goin' up on the Hill, and I used to see the.. when I was down the Triangle I used to see all these cars drivin around, what was goin' on? all these cars drivin' around? They'd drive around the hill, and then they'd come down to the Triangle and drive around the Triangle and back to the Hill again. And they just did it, did that on a regular ... I think at one point somebody might have picked me up at the Citadel.. at the Triangle and drove me up to the Citadel, and I don't think we could ever make out because it was always people drivin' by and gawkin into cars or slowin' down by your car to see what they could see, I think we.. I used go up the Hill, and I don't remember we went down the Commons or if we went down.. we went somewhere else and park.  Waterfront was quite a area, good area to park, coz sometimes you could park separate from anybody else. It was big parking area, not like it is now.

V: When you say the water area, do you mean the area near Pier 21 (G: down that area, yes.)  They would tend to go there from the Hill or the Triangle.
G: Yeah, if somebody suggested "Oh, I live out in Spryfield," I would just say, "Well, no, I don't think I'm interested tonight." And I would always be scared because Spryfield always had a bad name for people getting beaten up and taken out and things like that.   So I never.. when somebody said they lived in Spryfield then I'd just say, "Not tonight" or something that, then, I just wouldn't bother with them.

V: So Spryfield was known as a dangerous area.  (G: Dangerous area, yes.) Was it drugs at that time?
G: Well, I think it was drugs and guns and... it was, it was murders and stuff goin' on. That's your one place out there called Carson Street, which had a bad name for people gettin' beaten up and robbed and knifed and I don't know what all.

V: How was the gay life out there?
G: I don't, I don't think it was. Sometimes you'd meet people from there, and you'd wonder if you should have anything to do with them. You didn't know what to expect sort of thing.

V: You'd meet them at the Hill or on the Triangle.
G: And then they'd say they were from Spryfield or .. or if you did'em did them on grass or some area, they'd say, "Got a car? I was lookin' for a drive out to Spryfield."  Thought, "Oh gosh, that's all I need is to..." But... everyone I had, was, I never had any problems with anybody.

V: So you never went out to Spryfield.
G: I would never.. no. If anybody ... I think I did with one guy, I had a regular guy that I met every week, and we used to go out to Rockystone, I think it was a place called Rockystone, and we went in to park there, the gravel pit out there, we used to have sex out there.  But we never got caught, that was way out in Rockystone out in Spryfield.

V: So you did go out to Spryfield.
G: I did go out to Spryfield with somebody from Halifax here. (V: Whom you met in Halifax) I met in Halifax. (V: And whom lived out there.) No, he didn't live out there, but he seemed to know where to go. We used to always go out there. (V: And you used to go out to a quarry?) Yeah, we'd go to the gravel pit.

V: So that came later.
G: Yes, I would think maybe not the first year, maybe probably not in '61, probably '62 I think I was a little more active in '62, started meetin' people and.. kinda meetin' somebody- people on a regular basis like, gettin' off work and sayin' "I'll meet you at such-and-such a time," I always looked for the brown car, the guy drove a brown car, and he always picked me up, he was a very, very affectionate man. And, we never did anything in the car together, like, I.. he'd do me and then I'd do him, but at one point we had met, and we, we spent the night in a motel and we had a good time. (V: a motel. was that in Halfiax?) Outside of Halifax.  Off the 103. (V: except the 103, did it exist at that time?) No, it didn't exist at that time. It was just on the regular, whatever that highway. (V: the highway on the eastern shore?) No, that highway down the South Shore (V: down the eastern side, leading down to Yarmouth) But the Eastern Shore is down here.  That's called South Shore. (V: Yes, the South Shore, on the east side of the province) 

V: What was your work at that time, and how did you get into your career as a hospital worker?
G: I just came to Halifax in '60 and my brother had been here before, and he applied and they asked him, "Do you have a brother?" and he said "Yes, I have a brother," and he came one week, and I came the next. I didn't need any training or anything, I learned on-the-job training and I did the work for thirty years (V: before you retired.) Before I retired in '92, yes (V: So you've been retired now for 15 years) Yes, right.

V: And your present age is 71.
G: Yes.

V: You got into your career as a hospital orderly, you found yourself doing it.
G: Yeah. I was unemployed at the time, so I was glad to have a job and I, I didn't know if I.. it was psychiatric, so I sort of . and it was long-term, it wasn't short-term psychiatric care, it was long-term, for people that was in hospital for years.

V: And was this in Halifax (G: in Halifax, yes) in the QE2 Centre, Complex.
G: It was in the complex where the IWK Grace is, on South Street, South and University.

V: And did you enjoy that work?
G: Oh yes.  The only original building there now is the fire station.  That's the original building. The other buildings are all new, from there down to the VG.  They're all new since 1960.

V: Did your sexuality enter into this picture, into your work?
G: No, I wouldn't allow that to happen. I've seen lots, but I'm, I just never, let it work.. I never... I didn't fool around sort of thing.

V: What did you see?
G: I seen plenty dicks of all sizes.  I probably had a lump in my throat (V: at your work) thinkin' I'd love to do it but I, I just  didn't take a chance on it, I thought maybe, they'd report me and then I'd be fired.  Specially with bath time when they'd bath or have their shower.  And some of 'em, some of 'em I know couldn't talk, and they're, some of 'em had pretty big dicks, I mean, y'know they'd jerk off sometimes, they'd get a hardon, I'd say, "Why don't you jerk off?"  They'd jerk off, they'd be in the tub, the wad would be floatin'

V: And you wouldn't consider that to be sexual behaviour on your part?
G: No, long as nobody said anything concerning it.

V: But you didn't touch the person.
G: No, I didn't do that, no, I- I didn't want to and I thought I would lose my job.

V: How old were these patients?
G: Oh, I don't know, they coulda been, fifties maybe, forties or fifties. 

V: And would this occur in the presence of other people?
G: No, it was always private.  When they showered, like.  They sh- if they were shower- mostly when they were taking a tub bath, the warm water, I spose stimulated them.

V: So you would invite them to jack off if they wanted to.
G: I'd say "If you want to pull yourself, go ahead." and they'd do it, but they'd do it in front of me.  All that stuff floating in the water, I wish it was floating down my stomach.

V: Did your sexual experience become intense quickly, or did it develop gradually?
G: Intense grad... I guess it, I guess when I started out, I guess it, I just sort of wanted it all the time, sort of thing, and I would say it was quickly, I don't think it was a gradual thing.  And when it started, well then, I couldn't get enough of it, it was like, it was like opening up a bag of cashew nuts, I wanted to keep eatin' til they were all gone. I was hungry.  Mommy was hungry.

V: And how did you feel about this?
G: I didn't for .. I think the first couple times I never really, I think I sucked them but didn't, take the load, I just.. I'd maybe gag.  After a while I acquired a taste for it.

V: So you didn't feel guilty? (G: no, no guilt feelings) So you felt quite liberated?
G: I've had, I've had people who have had sex, I've had sex with, who said, "Oh, what a terrible thing," and asked me what I done with that stuff and I said, (snorting noise) "What stuff?" (laughs) Anyway they - a lot of them - felt guilty by doing this and they should have done that, what's my wife going to know, well, she don't need to know, if you don't tell her.

V: What proportion of these people would be married men during these years?
G: Oh, I don't know, it's hard to say probably.. I'd say fifty, seventy-five percent could be married people.

V: And you would learn that one way or the other.
G: Well, they'd either say they was married, or, they'd have a wedding band on, which ... you know.

V: Did you have trouble with gay bashing, dangerous encounters, hustlers, tell us about that.
G: Yes, I experienced gay bashing up on Citadel Hill, it was late at night, and I was down following somebody and the guy give me a punch and I kinda got away and then tried to get my wallet. And my wallet was in my side pocket, but he didn't get my wallet, then he stole my watch, and then of course he took off.  But I -- he hit me, and then at Camp Hill Cemetary I had an experience there, someone belted me in the eye, just inside the gate.

V: You mentioned Camp Hill Cemetary, was that active from that early historical period?
G: Well, I only found out, maybe it was always going on.  I moved on Summer Street around 19.. um... I think I moved there from '82 to '86, and it was then that I saw these cars driving and stalkin' and wondered what was going on so, at the time, a friend of mine was living with and .. my partner or friend or whatever you want to call him, he went out, "I'm gonna go out and see what's going on," and he didn't come back!  So I thought to myself, "I'm gonna go out investigate and see what's goin' on, you know." When I went up, I seen people goin' in there. So - when people went in there, then I thought, "Somethin' must be goin' on." So I kinda follow- I followed them in, and I ah, well I was wonderin' what was goin' on, I seen what was goin' on and then I got right into the action, too.  And I did see my friend there and I said, "What's goin' on in here?"  He said, "God," he says, "Wild in here," he says. "I often wondered what all those cars was drivin' around, back and forth." Coz we lived on the second floor, of the place near the Gardens there, which Garden Crest, and we seen all these people, we, and then we went here on a regular basis. We went there from '82 to '86 and beyond until there was a murder there.

V: Yes, and that murder, I think was in about '85, in the fall of '85.
G: Oh, was it? See, I moved away from there in '86, coz from '86 to '89 I was West Street, where I am now.

V: So, Camp Hill was quite active, and your impression historically is that it was probably active before you ...
G: Probably was before I came even downtown. And maybe it was goin' on when they were doing the Triangle.  I don't know.

V: Did the police come in there?
G: They'd come in there on an hourly, hourly.  And then everybody scampered under the, behind the tombstones and behind the trees.  And as lights went up, lights went down the rows of tombstones, everybody moved with the lights, and then eventually they'd leave, and in an hour's time they'd be back again, and they went through there all - every hour, the whole night long.

V: Now, did you go in there after the murder and after it was locked?
G: No, no, when the murders took place, then I didn't, I didn't go in there, I don't remember what I did then.  I probably was having home delivery.

V: Did you know this person who was murdered?
G: No, it was a foreigner. (V: an Asian person) and apparent- I was in there the night- I was actually in that there, that night, but not late, I think maybe I had to work the next morning or something so I had... so I went home probably by midnight. So I wasn't in there, and I found out about it the next morning. In fact I looked out the window where I . hospital where I was working I could look out, I seen all the police in there with their cameras and everything taking pictures and all that stuff, I could see that, and then I- but nobody when in there after that.

V: So they locked it soon after that.
G: Soon after - right after that, yes.

V: How did you feel having come so close to that murder situation?
G: Well, I felt pretty, I felt it coulda been, coulda been anybody in there, you know? Ah - even before that, coulda happened long before that, not just at that time. Just the wrong person happened to be in there at that time. Anyway, I'm glad it wasn't me and I'm glad that -- maybe I'm glad that it did close up and the -- but it might have been, you know, it was a good place to go but you don't know over the years as things went on, people saw a lot of gay bashing then after that.

V: You didn't have the sense of any dead people spinning in their graves.
G: No.  I came acr.. I came close one time having sex with somebody and a guy and a girl came through and they was about .. ten feet away from them. We laid still and if they'd have landed on top, walked on us, I don't know theyd'a thought the d-, they'da thought the dead was comin' alive! Because they'd, they'da scared, we'da scared, they'da scared us, and we'da scared them!  I don't think they were goin' in there to have sex probably, they moved on.

V: There were signs before this murder that it might happen.
G: Well, not really. There was never any gay bashing in there that I know of, other than that one that, trying to hit me (coughs) His friend was whistlin' and I said, "You know that fellow," and he said, "No" and no sooner than that he went to punch me above the eye and I quick put my hand..

(tape ends)

TAPE: VANCE INT 2007 (2)
V: Would you describe yourself as a sexual addict, subject to "every night fever" as the saying goes? If so, how would you explain this aspect of your nature?  Describe your addiction as you see fit.  How would you evaluate this aspect? So, first of all, would you describe yourself this way?
G: (laughs) Well, in the past, but not, not at the present. But, I was more active, I was more active when I was younger, than what I am, than what I am now.  I- I'm not as active now as I was, you know, when I was younger.

V: How do you explain this aspect of your nature?  So you'd say that had been addicted to sex, and that maybe that maybe you are somewhat addicted.
G: I am, and.. but not as much. Not as much. Now that I'm older, I don't cruise around areas where I used to cruise around, not be out 'til 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning sometimes 5 o'clock be home here.  But I, you now, I'm not, I don't do that any more. I just, now that I'm older I don't, let's put it, I have have "home delivery."

V: You have home delivery as you say - but do you have sex outside of that situation too?
G: Sometimes. Not - not very often.  (V: like, how often, say, in a given month?) Oh, God, I don't know, I wouldn't say any more than twice in a given month.  Up until a year ago, when I, when I used to go to the Apollo.  And then the Apollo closed, then the, that activity sort of ended because, well I didn't, you know, I didn't go out lookin; for it then.

V: How often would you have gone to the Apollo?
G: Well, I.. In a month you mean?  Probably.. sometimes I went, (laughs) one time I went five times in one week.  But only, that was only rare.  But, usually every Friday and Saturday night.  Sometimes I'd go Friday *and* Saturday. 

V: Did you continue that up until the Apollo closed?
G: Yes.

V: So would you say that you miss the Apollo?
G: Oh yes.  

V: What from this addictive point of view do you miss about the Apollo?
G: Well I miss the contact, I miss the, contact, the people that I knew. Some of my, clients, let's say, and, and the people that work there, I miss, y'know, I miss the ... socialization, I'd guess you'd ... coz we socialized a lot. Y'know, we just didn't go down there, I just didn't go down there and satisfy everybody, but if the opportunity knocked, I took my ... my chances.

V: You say "clients" -- now that's a misleading term.  Do you mean your contacts? (G: contacts yes) V: so this wasn't a monetary matter. (G: no, no.)

V: What do you think led to this addiction? Because you've indicated that you've been very sexually active over your life.
G: I don't know what led into it. I guess I was always gay and I just... y'know actually it was better to do it, have it.. be at the Apollo than be out cruisin' around.. and rootin' around. I mean, I did root around a lot, even even with.. even years ago, I used to go to the Apollo and then leave the Apollo and then go out and be out 'til three and four o'clock in the morning sort of thing, at the CItadel and on the Commons.  And of course, you know, Camp Hill Cemetary.  And then, well, there was other things there that we'll mention later.

V: How would you evaluate this aspect?  Obviously your sexuality is extremely important to you, and so how would you evaluate this aspect? Has it contributed to your happiness? (G: oh yes) and what would you mean by "happiness" here?
G: Is it happiness? It's satisfaction, gratification and satisfaction, but I'm not sure it's happiness.  Because you're not, you don't, don't see the same people twice. You only - it's only once, unless you have regular people that you see, then, then that's,  that's satisfactory.  

V: So you think that these sexual contacts are fleeting, and they're over, maybe in a few minutes, a half an hour, something like that?
G: And it's all ... most of them .. a lot of them have been just one way.  Nobody else... you know, I look after somebody and they don't bother looking after me. I mean there was the odd time that I might, there might be a mutual but not very often.

V: So if this doesn't bring you happiness, and you raise that question, what would you mean by happiness? (G: yeah)

V: That's a good way, G, to go to the next question concerning your later gay life in Halifax.  How about relationships?  Explain when and how you met Larry for example.  Do you want to say something generally about relationships first?
G: Yeah, well, that relationship lasted for forty-two years. It started off as a lover relationship for about four years, and then after that I was a whore, I guess, and I cheated, and when I cheated, that kinda , that left a bad- that made the other person feel pretty bad, and then things after that were then, was just, we were friends and that's all. We weren't sexual partners at all after that.

V: So by far most of your relationship with this person was (G: just a friendship relationship.)
G: But the first four years it was a, well, I didn't cheat or anything, and he didn't cheat, or not that I knew of. But, you know, then after that I guess he probably didn't trust me, and then we just... we sort of went our separate ways.

V: So the relationship became an open relationship (G: yeah, an open relationship.) For almost 38 years, it was an open relationship (G: yeah.) Did you live together for the first four years when you were faithful to each other? (G: oh yes) But then you continued to live together, right?)
G: See, I was living on Kent Street at the time, and I lived, we were there, it was then - it was then - it was probably during that time that things started to fall apart after the first four years. We were there until '64 until '70. So six years, then we just had an open relationship after six years.

V: So, could you explain the collapse of your sexual faithfulness to each other?
G: We just - we just had our, did our thing in private. We didn't include anybody else, and ... how to say it..

V: How did it fail?
G: It failed because I was unfaithful. (V: and why were you unfaithful?) We were on a trip, we were on a trip to Montr- to Quebec CIty.  And I used to hear about all the French guys, how hot they were, and I met a French guy, went home with him, and I guess all the while that I was home, why, my partner said to.. that he was upset, he was crying, he wondered what happend to me, coz here I am in a city where I don't even speak French -- he was quite worried about me, so he was really upset when I come back the next day, the next morning. (V: and with good reason, wouldn't you think?)  Yeah.  And maybe I shouldn't have done - done it that - you know, I shoulda, if I was gonna do it, I coulda done it in a different way - maybe I coulda done it in a way that he wouldn't have known about it, you know, sort of thing.  But then I wanted to be honest with him, so that's when things sort of fall - fell apart.   But, you know, we still remained friends and everything.  I wasn't going to split up from him, and he wasn't going to split up from me.

V: Why was that? Why was it that you would not split up with each other?
G: Well, I don't know. He liked me as a person, and you know, I was a.. I had a job, a fulltime job, and you now, I was able to help pay with... pay the bills, help pay the bills, household bills, housekeeping, and all the other things, so I think that's probably why he stuck with me, but a lot of people wouldn't, a lot of people woulda dumped me and moved on to somebody else, and you know the relationship, the way it is today, I mean, you hear, "Oh, my fri.. b... someone's in love with someone," and before you know it, they're splittin' up and they're with somebody else.  But, sometimes, uh, sometimes that happens and people accept it. If it's an open relationship and then other people won't accept that.

V: Explain when and how you met Larry, for example.
G: Does Larry's name have to be mentioned?  (V: I'm sorry) I mean I'm saying, they may have to edit it, they may have to leave out names, because that name really should not be mentioned. (V: No, that's true, so that will alert me to that, sorry about that.) So if someone hears that, they're going to say, they're going to know who "G" is, it's not G at all.  But anyway,  (V: Don't worry about it, that will be edited.)  Yeah, OK.  We met '64, and we met atPoint Pleassant Park, I can't remember the fort, but it was up from the beach, I remember I was, there up there layin' out , I was way over on the Northwest Arm side, and I laid.. I moved over closer to the beach area sort of thing, and that's where we met. But a member of.. a policeman was up on the top, lookin' down but he must not have seen us, the horse made a snort, when the horse made a snort, the person was reachin over feelin' me drew his hands away of course the police looked down, but they didn't see anything was going on (V: the policeman was above you) Yeah, above me.  And then, well then after that we couldn't go and do anything, I think we left and it was a Thursday, cuz I remember he was, he went to choir practice that night, and ... and I think of course I wasn't livin' in an apartment, I was livin' with my brother at the time, so I didn't see him 'til the next day.

V: Let's try something. Do you want to go back and we can eliminate that name?
G: Will this be put down on paper? (V: umm... we'll stop here.... we're moving again.)

V: So that's how you met this person
G: yes, partner, or friend, whatever. I think when you said "partner" that means that (V: it's a sexual relationship) that.. that we never cheated on one another. So it would be considered a friend rather than a partner.  It could be "common law" because it's considered nowadays as common law relationship.

V: Explain your relationship with your partner, let's say, or friend, over this long period of time.  So you've answered the question, "was it always an open relationship?" such as many gay men have, so you're saying that for the most part, for years, it was an open relationship. (G: Yes) and for four years, it was a closed relationship.  Do you think that Halifax is a safer place for now gays, than before, looking back at this long period of time?
G: I wouldn't call - I wouldn't say it's safer.  As we know in the last number of years there's been a lot of muggings, there's been a lot of people being beaten up on the Hill and in the Commons and different parks, and different things, different places.  (V: and recently, two murders) So it -- yeah, and murders and things, so I.. I.. probably... I just don't remember when that murder took place in Camp Hill Cemetary (V: 1985 - it was in the fall of 1985.)  OK -- I would say, before that, probably, couple years, I would say, from '64 to '80, it was fairly safe, coz, I mean you could go up on Citadel Hill at three or four o'clock in the morning and make out because the cars used to drive all the way around, but, you know, they don't do that now, and seems safe up there now, I never hear of anybody gettin' beaten up or robbed or... but it could happen, you know, coz you walk around, you don't know who's going to be meetin' ya at the next corner.

V: You mentioned about hustlers up there.  Say something about the hustlers and how they affect the safety of the situation.
G: Well, now, before they spent all their time on one side.  Now, they're around the Hill everywhere.  They're in places where *we're-- * where we cruise around, and I.. I think they're hustling, too, I think they want money, too, and I don't know what they would do, if there was somebody walkin' around, in a group, if there was a group come towards you or even if you spoke 'em. I don't know if they'd hustler you, or if they'd have sex with you.  I don't know.  I've never had any dealin's with them.  I notice that just in the last... I just noticed that a week ago, coz I hadn't really been out that much, over on the Hill roamin' around, I just lost my nerve and now I got my nerve back -- (laughs) back again.   The "cashew nuts" are freely available, and I have to be there 'til the last one's gone. (laughs) Not really.  I don't get as much as I used to get.

V: But that shows that the addiction is still expressing itself.
G: The urge is there, yeah.

V: Which is quite remarkable for a man of your years (G: yeah) .. at least many would think that.
G: Yeah, well, that's right, yeah.  Maybe I've got the mind of a fifty-year-old instead of a.. dah-dah-dah. (V: Well, you can say your age, if you want.) Seventy-odd.  (V: Seventy odd, yes.  Coz that's important, you know, that's very important, coz you're a senior and you've been living your gay life in this city for a long, long time.) Since '60.  (V: since 1960, that's 47 years.) Yeah, a lifetime. (G: well, it is a lifetime for some people, especially in the age of AIDS.)

V: How does the city of Halifax develop for you as a gay man's home town?  What, looking historically, over this vast period of time, how would you describe the way Halifax has developed for you as the home of a gay man?
G: Oh well, I .. uh, you know first goin' off it was a lot of cruisin' around in washrooms and 'round hotels and things like that, and now, you know, you can't do that any more, and some of the areas that used to be cruising areas are not cruising areas any more. You can't go in Camp Hill Cemetary, you can't ... well, I guess you can cruise on the street but I don't know where they cruise on the street, I never see them around cruisin', they must have an area where they walk around, but the Hill seems to be the spot where everybody goes.

V: So the Hill has come back into focus, then (G: yes, yes) over a period of time.
G: Yes, because there was a time when hardly anybody was up on the Hill, even the hustlers.  They was down at, uh, down at the Triangle or the.. along the Public Gardens there, along Sackville Street to Summer, and then all the way down.. and then of course years ago they there on the Stone Wall, we used to call it the Meat Rack, Spring Garden and South Park Street, it was a stone wall there along there by the Lord Nelson, and it was.. that, we used to call the Meat Rack.  There was a stone wall along there, and everybody, all the gays would sit there, see, and then if somebody went by they, if they was interested, they'd nod their head and you'd walk towards their car and jump in the car. 

V: Right on the corner of Spring Garden and South Park? 
G: That.. that would have been from '60 and I don't know, I don't know when, everything would have changed down there, because they built a bank, you know, it was a bank, it was a Royal Bank on the corner but then it's all, that all changed.  The Lord Nelson Arcade washroom was an active place, that changed all over.

V: The Arcade was down below?
G: It's on the flo... off the main street.  The Arcade, used to call, we called it the Lord Nelson Arcade.

V: There were steps going up to the main lobby?
G: Not -- not in that part of the ho- not part of the the hotel.  Just, it was a main entrance in the, into the business section. (V: Oh, was that off Spring Garden?) Yeah, it's off S... maybe it's still there, I don't think they call it Arcade now, or what they call it. (V: and then you could go up the steps into the lobby of the Lord Nelson.) No, no, no part, didn't have anything, any part of the Lord Nelson. It was the mall itself, the Lord Nelson Arcade. And it was an arcade of businesses, and toilets, a toilet. (V: and so there was activity in the toilet?) yes, a lot of activity there.  The bar downstairs was called the LBR at that time, and it was for men only. And then over the years, it developed that it was co-ed.  And then of course people got caught in there (V: in the washrooms) yeah, Did up to... they.  they had glory holes, had a hole there and you put it through, and do them, and, and there was a lot of activity in the.. the clerk, some of the business people used to go in there and make out. (laughs)

V: That stone wall, where gay men used to sit and wait to be picked up by passing cars, how long and how high was that stone wall?
G: Well, that stone wall was about as high as what's along the, where the public library in Spring Garden Road is, it was about as high as. (V: where they have chip trucks and so on) Chip trucks, all. But that, that, it was as high as that.

V: And how long would you say it was?
G: Oh it, it .. it wasn't a full length.. like, it wasn't from one end of the street to the other, it was only a, it was only within the hotel area.  So it, so it went up there.. I can't remember now, was it a long wall?  I can't even remember that.

V: And did it just go to the corner of Spring Garden and South Park? Or did it go up South Park?  
G: It went up, it went up... it was actually on South Park Street.  And it, it might have, might have came out a little bit on the.. it might have came out bit from the hot. from the bank there, it used to be a Royal Bank there.  And it came out and then and went up this way, like thi... it was a s.. a small area and then it went up, and it go up that far. I think it mighta went up to, where the, where the entrance to the hotel is. So it was ... only up in that short distance.

V: So the gay men would sit on the South Park side, because that was much longer than was up on Spring Garden.  So it was an L shape. (G: yeah)
G: And then they did crui... they did park ah, people then would sit on benches on Spring Garden Road there on the opposite side, there where VIctoria Park is, and then they'd, if they saw somebody then they'd go 'round the corner and co.. and go down Tower Road and stop there and then... make contact.

V: So there was cruising over at Victoria Park too.
G: Not so much in the park area but mostly on the street where people.. when they went by, was interested they (V: and go down Tower Road and pick somebody up.) pick someone up.  Or sometimes they'd tip down .. go down and sometimes they would go down and get out of their car and walk in the park, and you walked down.. the park.

V: You mean the Public Gard.. or Victoria Park?
G: Victoria Park.  They'd walk down and then, I s'pose make contact with, whoever. I never had any, any luck there (V: at Victoria Park) yeah, and none at, none at the Meat Rack. (laughs) I never made out at the Meat Rack or even the Triangle. I think a couple times I m.. made out at the Triangle years ago.

V: How do you explain the fact that you didn't seek sex there, that you didn't get it there?
G: Well, I don't know, I just didn't.. they weren't interested in me I guess. I was older, you see, I was, I woulda been in my twenties I guess then, late twenties (V: oh, that's not very old) no, I guess they just wasn't interested in me, I just.. uh.

V: Were they very young, the guys cruising (G: yeah, yes) around the Triangle and so on?
G: Yes, and they'd walk around with tight jeans on, you could, I mean see everything, nothing was hid, and, and .. But I did get picked up with a few people over the years (V: in those areas) in those areas. But the, Triangle, I would say, more than, more than any, probably any other place but on the Hill, God, it's easy, you know, on the HIll.  Up there it's three or four o'clock in the morning and meet somebody.

V: Now, the Hill is active again, and the Triangle is completely barren (G: yes) How do you explain that, G?
G: Well, I don't know, I think the people just, the hotel moved out of there, then it, teh.. no, all new development and nobody do.. nobody does that area any more.  And I don't know when that would take place, um, (V: Certainly in the last ten years) More than that, oh yes, more than that. (V: Fifteen) Fifteen, twenty years maybe.  From, from '60 until... 80.. I don't.. cruisin' over there in the '80s or not, I can't remember. Probably twenty years approximately. 

V: Do you think it's because it was gentrified, because these splashy shops came in there?
G: Oh yes, I'm sure a lot of that, too. And people might have complained that gay people was hangin' around. I don't remember what's .. if there was anything written up in papers and things (V: there were complaints) I never.. whether there was any complaints from merchants, I don't know. (V: Course there weren't merchants at that time but..) There was a lot of businesses along there, it was some houses along there too, coz I lived there.  (V: including the one the very top, at the  apex  of the Triangle) The Bollard house. (V: the five sided house) There's a guy that lives there, I haven't seen him for a long time, he used to be out quite a lot, made out a couple times with him.

V: Do you think that there was at some point a kind of gay revolution defying the bad treatment of gays? Perhaps resembling the historic Stonewall gay bar riot in 1969? That's a very important question. Can you recall anything in Halifax that would reflect or would suggest the riots at the gay bar in New York, the Stonewall, that started the Gay Rights Movement?
G: No, I don't, don't think there was anything like that in Halifax.  Not that I ever, that I never came across anything that, and I can't recall of anything of that nature.

V: So you can't recall any massive confrontation of gays with police.
G: no, not that I recall.  I mean, y'know there was gay bashing, things like that, and a.. and a mur..  that murder sorta took place and then, it was after that that, I think, things slowed down quite a bit, you know, people wasn't rootin' around as much and, and course maybe then by that time they was checkin' all these hotel washrooms and all these places and everything more security around and everything. 

V: So in your long experience there is nothing...
G: Never, there is never anyth.. there was never any riots or anything here. There was a riot one time on Gottingen Street. That had nothin' to do with sex..ty, that was racial. I don't remember what year it was, the, the.. the city was under emergency, I don't remember what year it was, but it was terrible, they smashed windows and they did beat up people, I didn't get beaten up but somebody got badly beaten up just sittin in a car over on the, on Trollop Street, and they were, they were blacks, they were black.  I didn't go out of the house, I don't remember where I was livin at the time. I wasn't livin here, but I mighta been livin down.. I don't know where I was livin at that time, I don't remember what year it was, but I was livin somewhere, I don't know if I was livin Spring Garden Ro.. ah.. Summer Street, or was I... I wasn't out on Quinn Street I wouldn't think, no, it wasn't the seventies. Seems to me it was in the eighties (yawn) excuse me.

V: But the important thing is it was not.. (G: gay related) Gay related, it was black. (G: black)
G: I don't know what triggered the whole thing. I can't remember now, what triggered.. what.. what started it all.  I have no idea, can't remember.

V: Would you agree that on Gottingen Street now, the gays and the blacks seem to get along?
G: They seem to, I never hear of anything bad, once in a while you hear, somebody's car being broken into, or something like that but, other than that, ah, specially up near, uh, aahh, where that YMCA is across there, where the... used to be a bar there, there was a lot of activity goin' on up there with, uh, people kept breakin' in cars. But I haven't heard anything lately in that, in the other area, They, they haven't, uh, ganged up and, beat anybody up, then, but nobody wanders around the street there, or or, walks up to the bridge or anything like that, coz I'm sure everybody'd be afraid to.  

V: But, where the gay village is, in from Cogswell, and along Seadogs and MenzBar
C: Even Seadogs, is, you know, there's nobody, that I ever heard tell gets beaten up there. There's never anybody hanging around outside sort of thing.  So they must accept what's, what's there.  And you see, there was a gay bar, there was a gay bar right there on the corner, near - at the foot of Cunard Street? Right there by the foot of Cunard?  (V: Foot of Cunard and Brunswick, you mean?) No, Cunard and Gottingen.  It was a gay bar there, but I don't think -- if anything ever happened, I never heard of anything goin' on or anybody bein' ... anything.

V: Why do you think we didn't have gay riots in Halifax?
C: I have no idea, I dunno what... I'm sure people was.. knew about the gays, I mean we'd be ... walkin along the street and there was always... Friday nights was the worst nights, because all the s.... I called the "riff raff" come in from out of town, and everybody was labelled as queer, or fruit, or faggot and whatver term they used, and go 'round and harass people like that on the... I never really, ah... y'know, but there was never any riots or anything, they never ganged up on a whole lot of people or anything like that, I mean there was clubs and things, and bars, and I don't know that... Gottingen Street never had any gay bars, I can't remember... there.. the old, back when I first came to Halifax, uh, the Cameo Restaurant was a, was a bar and it was called "Candlelight Lounge." (V: wasn't that on Barrington?) No, that was on Spring Garden Road. And then there was another bar called the Heidelberg, that was a gay bar, Dresden Row, yes, and, one other one - was there another one? Of course there was one called Stonewall, eventually, down.. there was Rumours, there was Stonewall, that was a bar and .. tavern and a gay bar, I guess, too, and then the old news service was a, was a gay restaurant, oh yes, and the Piccadilly, years ago, that was the mai - there was - and it was split up, the gays on one side, and the straights on the other side. (V: Don't you like that word, "Pick -A-DIlly"?) News Service was the restaurant, that was a, that was a gay restaurant, I never went in there. See, I didn't mix in with the gays then.  I didn't go to all the gays flippin' and talkin' all that foolish talk 

V: Why is that so?
C: I don't know... I just didn't.. I, I just wasn't in with the gays, you see I wasn't in... I was gay myself but I did mine diff- I did my own thing, they did their thing but they, they got in there and talked about what they did, and I kept things to myself, and I probably never told anybody.

V: So, you didn't socialize with other.. 
C: No, I didn't socialize with the other gays.. and, one time, I think they said, "Let's go down to the Piccadilly" and I went down to the Piccadilly and ... well, I had a beer, but, y'know, they were campin' it up and screamin' and hollerin' and flippin' and doin' all the gay things. But I, I didn't do that, and then of course the men were on the other side, but the straight men would protect the gays if somebody come in and started to, started callin' them names, like, boy, some of the straight people, some of the straight ones would, would tell them to mind their own business and they're on their side and we're over here and just leave them alone.

V: And where did this protection take place?
C: Right in the bar.  In the Piccadilly.

V: And where was the Piccadilly bar?
C: It was on the corner of, uh, let me think, Sackville and, uh... Market Street?  No, not Market Street, the next street down. Argyle, I believe it was, yes.  And the News Service was where the Neptune Theatre is, on the corner of Sackville and Argyle.  So I don't think it was Argyle, I think it was the next street up, whatever the next street up is.  Not Grafto- could be Grafton.  Might have been Grafton.

V: Tell us about your experience in the tearooms, that is, the men's toilets.
C: That was a long.. That... I had lots of sex there.  I can't remember the first one I went to.  I... I probably went to the first one I probably went to was the Nova Scotian Hotel.  The Nova Scotian Hotel had two washrooms that was pretty active.  One up by the bank when you first went in the entrance, and one down behind the desk, and there was two doors between both washrooms, you had warning to get in and get out, get up, get up, or what, if you were down on somebody, get up quick, nobody would even know you were there.

V: You mean from the one cubicle to the other.
C: Now, I don't know. If I was down on my knees doin' somebody and I heard somebody come in, I can quick get up and the other fellow get.. just pat the other fellow on the leg and he'd get up too. You could hear some coz the doors used to squeak.

V: And this is the washroom nearest the train station. (G: Yeah) Would you blow this guy under the partition or through a glory hole?
G: Under the partition. There was never any glory holes down there, but it was always under the partition. Sometimes, sometimes you could get in the corner, there was a little bit of a corner there, they'd open the door and you could do them right from the... they'd open the door and they'd stand up and you'd sit down and do them (V: Blow them) Yeah.  And, and, well, there was a lot of washrooms then.  It was then, it was there, and, uh, Lord Nelson, and, ah, eventually the, the Halifax Shopping Centre was active too, there was a lot of activity out there.

V: And did you have experience out at the Halifax Shopping Centre? (G: Yes)

V: Explain as you see fit the legal difficulties you had. Tell us what they were, and how they affected you and how you dealt with them.
G: In the Halifax washroom, in the Halifax Shopping Centre Washroom, in the upper washroom, upstairs, it was when the Halifax Shopping Centre did a changeover. Before that, it was facing the, ah, west side, and it was a pretty active place, it was the west side? and then I think those washrooms were closed. And then it was renovated again, and it was in another area where you kind of walked in, and there was a little space where you could stand in the corner, and sort of watch if anybody was comin' or, ah, warn somebody if somebody was comin', if somebody was makin' out, if you was a wa-- if you watched while someone was doin' somebody else, then you could inform them that (clears throat) clear your throat or do something that somebody was coming. And I was in there one time, and I was... I was.. I touched somebody, and ah,  (V: Could you tell us when this was?) Oh, I don't remember what year it was.  I.. I... twenty years ago max, it was probably more than that. Probably in the eighties. In the eighties but I don't know what - when. But anyway the person, we made contact by writin' notes, and I wanted him to come over to my place. I was, well, I was livin on Quinn Street at the time.  So I lived on Quinn Street between, between seventy and eighty-two.  So sometime in between that, that was sometime in between that time, that happened.  And I (ahem) wasn't touchin' the guy, or doin anything, but the pl- but somebody came in, and then went out, but I stood up to see if that person went out, but that person didn't go out. That person stood in the corner of the thing. (V: to watch?) To see if, if anything was goin' on. And I wrote the guy a note and I said, "There's a guy standing over in the corner there." So what I did, maybe I shouldn'ta done it, I took a bunch of toilet paper, and I wet it, and I (laughs) threw it over in that corner!  Or threw it at the door at the corner, (V: where the guy was) where the guy was, knowing.. let him know I knew he was there. So he wen- he probably got mad, went out, and called in security, and they said, "you're under arrest." And, ah, I said, "Just having a, just havin' a dump," he said "You're having more than a dump," he said, "You're two.. The two of you are in here." And my God we had to both come out, I knew the guy, and I wanted to come, I wanted to go home with me. He wouldn't come home. He was shopping, and his wife was there, out in the shopping centre... Anyway, they, they (ahem) they took a... got our name, and laid, laid charge, and wanted to know if they wanted to put us in handcuffs, and I said, no, it's not necessary. It was getting towards closing time, it was like.. 

V: You mean they asked you if you wanted them to put handcuffs on you?
C: Yeah-- no, they said, "you want us to put handcuff.." and I said, well no, it's not necessary.  Anyway, we were taken into the ... the police came along, and we were taken into the office of the shopping centre, the security office, and we were told that we were charged, ah, from, indecent act.. indecent act in a public place. And I said, "We weren't doin' anything, and the guy didn't see us doin' anything." We didn't do anything, we, I didn't go down on him or anything.  But they, they, accused me of that. So then I of course went and, uh, then I went eventually, I was banned from the shopping centre for a year. 

V: Who banned you?
G: The security. And in the meantime, the- I was going to have to appear in court. I had to go down to the police station, have a mug shot, and all the fingerprinting and everything. Then I had to get a lawyer. Notify the lawyer and got a lawyer.  I'm some upset at the time, I remember and, when it happened, it happened in the month of June, I know that much.  Anyway, ummm, and of course I didn't want anybody at the.. at the work to know about it or anything. So when it was time for me to go to get my fingerprinting, I took the day off. I said I was sick, from, from work. So I went and, uh, you know, had the fingerprinting and everything done, and then I was, then I had to get a laywer and get all the details and everything like that. So I, uh... (pause) ANYWAY um.. so that went on for about six months.

V: What do you mean it went on for six months?
G: Well, with the laywer and goin' - we didn't really go to court, and I wasn't charged. There was no charge but I don't know what happened. Ah, I think it was dropped, for some reason or another. There was nother.. not enough evidence.

V: Not enough evidence, and did the laywer get the charge dropped?
G: He, he must have gotten the charge dropped.  And, uh, there was a ban on publication, I, I said I didn't want my name put in the paper because I would lose my job, I said, at that point, you see I only had s.. been there for ten years or so, and I didn't really want to lose my job through it all.  So I... anyway, got through, got through it without any charges.  And then I didn't go round the washrooms at all, then after that, I just didn't go round any washrooms in public. I did, I did the Commons and the HIll and the Public Gardens and stuff like that but I never did the washrooms.  I stayed away from the washrooms, I just... put a fright in me. 

V: And that lasted years (G: Yeah.) 

V: For a six month period you were quite anxious about what had happened (G: yes) And did you have sexual experiences during that period?
G: No, I had no, I had no desire to do anything. I just.. was so upset by it that I .. and my partner knew about it, and you know, he just said, you know, "Be more careful." He says, "That's why I don't hang round those places."  He never hang- hung around those washrooms or anything. He never picked up anybody up in the washrooms or anything.

V: Did you have any medication or anything...
G: No, I didn't. I don't recall going to a doctor or anything to .. for any medication or anything. I would say it was a pretty much "hang on" to, ah, y'know, look after my work and probably thinking about it all the time, you know.  But it didn't affect me in any and of course if it would have, they would have wondered at work, what, what's wrong with you?  Something's matter, and somethin' .. and y'know, maybe you need to see a, see your doctor or something.  I don't... I think the doctor knew about it.  My doctor knew about it so ..

END OF TAPE.

TAPE 2 SIDE 2

V: Now, so that's two sides to that -- the second side to that tape.

V: During that six-month period, G, you had no sexual experience and you had no desire for it.
G: No, no... I.. it took the wind out of my sails, so to speak, yeah.

V: When did you resume your sexual activity? When the charges were dropped?
G: I think it was quite a while after that that I... that I... I don't remember, I used to see different people, I think here in town, at the.. at the.. where I was living.  I- I was seeing different people, y'know, like, ah, they'd come in for the... morning or something that... for an hour or so. I probably did something (V: at home) but not at the public (?houses?) I didn't go there, I didn't go near the washrooms, it put a fright in me. 

V: So that was a six-month period that affected you deeply (G: yeah) After that, you pretty much left the washrooms alone?
G: More or less, and then gradually.. (laughs) come into it again. It's a sickness, you know (G & V laugh) TRQ. Somebody called me a TRQ - a tea room queen (laughs)

V: Why did you go back into it, when you could have had sex, when you had other options?
G: Ohhh... I dunno, guess it was just.. chance that you.. you know, that you take a chance. But probably not as much, I... seems to me I was doing less, I don't think I was doing the washrooms too much, in other places like Scotia Square and all those places.  I wasn't, I wasn't doin' it as much... Like a t-- like I say, it .. it put a fright in me, coz I thought, well God, maybe everybody else was watchin' you know, and when word like that goes around- gets around, and, ah, if .. I was banned from the shopping centre from a year, but I didn't go back for two or three years after.   But then I didn't go near no washrooms...

V: you didn't go near the washrooms when you went back to the shopping centre (G: no) you just went there to shop (G: to shop) 
G: I used to go... we used to... my partner and I used to go out on Saturdays, that was our day we'd go, have our, ah, lunch, and .. and then just shop around and then, then come home. But we didn't (V: your partner had a car, right?) oh no, no, we took the bus.

V: Halifax is a seaport and a navy town. Have you had sexual experience with sailors and other military personnel?
G: No, I've never been in contact with anybody, ever. If I did I wouldn't have known who they were.

V: So they wouldnt' have been in uniform.
G: no.  They didn't really turn... uh..  the military people didn't really turn me on, like, well, the gay people used to say that they were wonderful and.. you know, had the uniform, take your uniform off.

V: Uniforms were very sexy.
G: Yeah, and, and I never had any experiences with anybody, that I ever recall.  And if they were, I... you know, they were late at night sort of thing, I don't know.

V: How would you explain that you weren't attracted, because some of these sailors would be pretty nice looking guys, and well hung and all that, and it's a navy town and there would be ..
G: I just never ... and like I say, if I had any contact with any of 'em on the Commons or any.. I woulda never known. But they weren't in uniform. (V: they weren't in uniform) I mighta had Navy sailors here on... on... on visiting, like, visiting from other.. other ports, like, you know, like the ship that comes in and, sometimes you wan-  they wander over on the Hill and whatever I mighta looked after stuff.. some of 'em ... but they were outta uniform, there was never anybody in uniform.

V: When the Americans came, and they were, so many of them, nice looking guys, like when the USS Missouri, the battleship came in, I remember that in 1950, I was just a little boy (G: well I wasn't here in Halifax then) But when American Navy ships came in, there would be American sailors all over the place (G: oh yeah) Do you know, for example, whether they would have gone to gay establishments
G: I don't think, I don't think that they would... I don't know if they ever went to the gay bars. I .. it seems to me they used to say they used to go to Reflections and some of those other bars, I think.

V: That's much later, isn't it?
G: And .. it was Rumours then, I don't know if they ever went to Rumours or not.  See I don't... as I say I never.. I wasn't a bar person, I never would've, I think I went to the bar a few times, maybe to the Candlelight.... nobody paying any attention to me! I didn't... you know, I guess I don't know why I was .. I guess I wasn't attractive, like the other people were.  But you see they were dr..  they were drinkin' a lot, so they was mouthin' off, talkin' and.. and talkin' to all these people then eventually took them home or took them for.. for a drive 

V: And you didn't drink, from what you say
G: Not that much, no, you see there was a.. then there was a.. bar in the.. Dresden Arms Hotel, the old Dresden Arms Hotel, or it was newly renovated or something, and it...

V: Was that at the base of the Triangle, where the road comes along there?
G: Yes, yes, and along Artilliary Place, there, and they had a, they had a bar in there, it was a straight bar, but it turned out to be a gay bar in the end. It was a lot of gay people in there.  But it was guy who was homophobic, who didn't, ah, who didn't like gays at all, and eventually, eventually they cl..  closed down and said they was doin' renovations and they did renovations then they banned the ba.. they banned the gays from goin' there.    

V: The Dresden Arms
G: The Dresden Arms, and then the Dresden Arms was eventually torn down and then condos was built.

V: I think they put another motel there and tore it down.
G: Yes, that's right. The old original hotel was there, the old Dresden Arms and then the other, the new Dresden Arms hotel was built after the old... the n... coz that Dresden Arms was there when I first came to Halifax in 1960, and that was still there [breath...] well.. coulda been in... shoulda been in the '60s .. and I can't remember when they tore that down and then built another one and then, then eventually built this condo, there's condos in there now. 

V: So there's no gay sex around there now, I would assume.
G: No, at all.

V: You've been a regular, G, at the Apollo gay sauna in downtown Halifax. You've talked about this before, but you might have more to say - describe your experience there and give us an idea of the social as well as the sexual role played by that gay institution until it closed, which is just about two years ago.
G: It was a, it was a nice place, I.. I.. I enjoyed it.  And when I.. when you got there you felt like you were at home, because, the owner had, had it nicely furnished, you know? The man before that, the owner before that, just had ordinary chairs and things around, and then there was some changes made after, this other owner took over, and he only took over no more than.. two years, I think it is, before it closed, ahh.. that he fixed it all up and put pictures on the walls and, and, ah, made extra, made some extra rooms, what.. what used to be the.. the sitting room was made into two bedrooms, and then the sitting room was back.. the other area, which, which was a room that... was.. he called the "massage room" I guess it was, and it was very homey like.  When you were there, you just felt like you were at home, you didn't want to leave, sort of thing. And then the hours... extended, from ... they used to close at, at midnight well then, they went on for about two years I think that they, they were open 'til 2AM.   And I.. I used go.. go there in the evening, and then I'd stay 'til they closed and ah.. I'd tell'em... I didn't move around .. yup... there was no rootin' around down.. you know, leavin' the sauna and goin' up on the Hill and rootin' around then. 

V: So you would have had a lot of experience there.
G: Yeah, two years ... I would say two years when, when the person took it over, that's when, when, and the hours changed, when they changed to op- open 'til 2AM then I didn't bother goin' out rootin' around, coz I was gettin', I was gettin' satisfied. I was getting my ... nourishment.

V: At the Apollo. (G: yes) So the owner who closed it, ran it only for two years.
G: I would say no more than two years. (V: I thought it was longer than that) Nnnno, I don't think.

V: He bought it from the previous owner, didn't he?
G: Yeah, I think two, two years before that.

V: Yes, so four years. I would say that it was longer from my experience going there for poppers, and then I went in eventually.
G: No, I don't think he.. I don't think that person had four years... I would have to go back to my diary. I keep a diary, I can ha.. it.. and.. it.. I could go back in my diary and have an idea, because I can't get aho- ahold of the other own.. the owner, to ask questions like that. Uh... I.. the former owner might know, might remember, I don't know if he can remember when, when, this person took over. (V: when he sold it to this person) Yeah, yeah.

V: We'll come back to your diary.  Just before we go to the final section; and so it was a social place as well as a sexual place (G: hmm) Could you say something more about the social side of it?
G: Well Way.. uh.. the person (V: [laughs] it's alright) that owned it, the la- the last owner, y'know he'd, he'd have coffee, you could have tea or coffee, it was free, you didn't have to pay for it, the only thing you paid for was pop.  Umm.. they sold no cigarettes or anything like that, or, and eventually they sold.. started to sell chocolate bars and chips and stuff like that.  And, uh, once in a while we'd have, we'd have, uh, a buffet, Christmas we'd.. uh New Year's we had a buffet, we'd have a buffet at, uh, Hallowe'en, and .... uh.. maybe in the spring, February or March, we'd have a, a get-together. 

V: Tell me about the buffet.
G: It was like, to, pot luck, you know, the p.. the owner did all the, he bought everything and and brought all the contr- ah, the heated, ah, trays and everything in, you know, they were all ready.. the .. that the person would.. would.. his partner works at a place where he can get all those, uh, trays that.. that.. that you plug in sort of thing. (V: like casserole dishes that are heated) Heated casserole dishes, yeah.

V: And the owner would pay for all that food.
G: Yes.  And.. and.. and s-  they also had, ah, well, they didn't really have a license, but they brought beer in, and they had wine, they had ah, they'd drink wine or beer, (V: on special occasions?) special occasions, yeah. And the last goin' off, I think the last time, the last.. when they closed out, they had a buffet that, that evening. That was the end of the.. end of an era.  And that was ah, seems to me it was a Friday night? or a Saturday night, I can't.. (V: in September, it's two years ago.)

V: So the owner was a generous person.
G: oh yeah, very nice, and he was nice to everybody. And somebody came in there and wanted to know directions, you know, where certain bar is, well, he'd, write it all down or, uh, explain to 'em, and have a map and show where everything was.  He was very knowledgeable where, where other owner just ... said .. "Well it's uptown, or... it's downtown" or whatever, he never, he wouldn't, he couldn't be bothered to ge- explain. He - didn't - he didn't - he had a rotten personality. You'd sit there and watch television, and you'd wat- be interested in a program and all of a sudden he'd flip the channels, and then he might come back to the original channel, but na- he was kinda ignorant n- in that way.  But this person, ah, wouldn't do that, if he was watching program they'd stay watchin' their programs, and not switchin' back and forth programs. 

V: And he had a good porn collection?
G: Yes, and then.. eventually uh, one year at Christmas, uh, myself and three other people went together and bought a DVD,  and he, he got a DVD player, and then he.. he got some DVD movies, they gay movies, and they would show those in the evenings and, uh, sometimes they'd be activity goin' on upstairs during the movie and sometimes they'd go downstairs or go into their rooms or whatever.  They had a real, pot luck, pot luck both ways. 

V: And how often would he take in pot luck like that?
G: Oh, couple times a year. He'd supply everything, you know, we used to say, can I- can we help out or anything, he'd say "No, I'll supply it" and .. then.. y'know he made meatballs, and ch- chicken casserole and all... he made everything!   And I think some of us, some of us I think brought in things like Tim Horton donuts and maybe pop or something like that, but most people wanted to drink beer. Some of 'em would take a little bit advantage and, drink more than, more beer than what they should but then, but when they were high, and then they were any- they were anybody's I guess, then. 

V: Did both owners sell poppers?
G: They all - they sold poppers, yes, during the whole period. And every time they sold them they up.. it opened around 1972, for the first time, that was the original owner (V: who had the bad personality?) No - this was another man, a new (??? this) man, and he always said, ah, he'd love to have a, a sau- he'd like the house to have a sauna, we used to see him, I don't know where we seen him, Spring Garden Road or.. he was cruisin' around, he'd say, "I'm gonna ha- I'm gonna open up a sauna," he said, "Somewhere, and I don't know where it'll be, but, if I can find a place for a sauna I'm gonna open it up." But.. (V: a gay sauna) yeah.  First couple years, ah, there was a person that was there and he was there all the time and he'd, he'd steal everything ou- everything he could from.. he'd get a room, and he'd take everybody he could get, hold of, and take 'm, take 'em to the room. And I, at that point I never eve- I stopped goin', I just didn't bother goin' any more.

V: Which owner was this?
G: That was the, the second owner. 

V: And this person was a thief?
G: Well... I don't mean a thief, he was a.. go-getter, I guess, he just wanted everybody that, he could get in there. And, and ne.. never left anything for anybody else, if anybody else wanted anything they just didn't get it. And he didn't have too much to offer I don't think, but he (V: you're talking sexually) yeah, so I guess he, whatever he did with them, I dunno wasn't long enough, I don't think. 

V: He stopped going?
G: And then he moved to Vancouver, and when I heard he moved to Vancouver, then I, then I started to go back, then I started to go .. and then of course there was another sauna opened up on Quinn S-- Queen Street, also, and I can't remember when that was (V: really!) yeah - on Queen Street. Queen Street and, uh, and Morris, almost at the corner there, called Queen's Inn, they called it the Queen's Inn, but they had to change the name because he'd get all kinds of, the guy used to get all kinds of ah, phone calls that'd say, "Is the Queen in tonight?" and he just, ah, he got fed up with that, so he called it the Queen Street Inn. But, ah, but ah, it went for quite a few years, and then he had, he had the most rotten personality, if you asked him, "Is somebody- is .. you got many people there tonight?" He'd say, "Do you call down to the, uh, Neptune Theatre and ask them if they got many people tonight?" I said, "Well, just like to know if there's, if there's one or two people around." He was nasty, terrible, nasty.  

V: It wasn't the same person who was the first owner of the Apollo
G: No, no, no, somebody else.  And he eventually, his- his business folded up and then, but he had a, he had a bed and breakfast place and, 

V: Do you think his business folded up because of his personality?
G: I would think, yes, coz a lot of people just stopped goin', and of course Apollo was still open, so people started goin' to- back to the Apollo at the end they didn't bother patronizin' - I guess he lost so much business.  And he had a, he had a sauna ...

V: Did he sell poppers too? 
G: I don't believe.  He had beautiful beds, you know, beds were nice, had nice silk sheets on them, and, you know, they were clean and, and so.. y'know, they had a sauna, and they had a, a showers.

V: But it was a gay establishment.
G: Oh yeah, a gay establishment.

V: And so it was a gay bed and breakfast.
G: Yeah, yeah... well, I don't know if that was, there was straight people was up above, I don't know.  And I don't, I don't think it was a _gay_ bed and breakfast, I don't think.

V: And what would have become of that building?
G: That is - that's still there, and I don't know, I don't know if it's still run as a, as a bed and breakfast or an inn, or what it is now.  And I don't- I used to know the person that owned that, but I don't know if he still owns it or not.

V: Do you have any stories to tell about the Apollo?
G: Sh.. so many [laughs] Like, li- I don't - I don't- I don't think I have anything in particular that I, that I want to .. reveal. Coz I, coz I got the.. there was so many, you know, and I had, and I had people that..  didn't want anybody else but me, I guess.. I.. I guess I musta did a good job to them. Coz then when they'd come in, they'd say, "Is that tall guy in tonight?" and they'd say, "You know, G- G is in tonight." So, ah, then that person would say, "Oh, that's good, I'm glad." and then they'd say, and, and then this person would say to me that, "Somebody just came in and asked for you," and I'd say, "Oh that's that guy," I'd say, "Oh yeah, sa- I enjoyed being with him." And he al- he just wanted me, he didn't want anybody else. And he'd get a room and then, I'd go up to his room. 

V: At the Apollo
G: Yeah

V: What about visitors?
G: There would be a lot of people in.  Y'know down- I mean the most (V: Visitors to the city, like?) yeah, most, uh, most, I think the most people there in the run of a night woulda been maybe thirty. I don't mean thirty all at once, but thirty out- in the course of a whole evening.   And I don't think there'd be any more than that. And, and sometimes coz uh.. they'd come in early, they'd come in at, uh, they opened at six, normally they was- wasn't supposed to open 'til seven but they opened six, and they'd go 'til twelve, and by twelve o'clock, they wasn't that many people come in after twelve o'clock. The odd one or two would come in from twelve until two, and then somebody would come in about 1:30, you see, an then they'd hang on, and it would be 2:30 before we got out of there, by the time, you know, puttin' things away and...

V: It's my experience too that I'd go down there sometimes and it would be closed early.
G: Yeah, close early because it was nobo- nobody there even by ten o'clock there was nobody. An even a Sunday night, they would be open, four hours on Sunday, I think from six until ten, and there was nobody there. If nobody was there... within .. within the hour they'd probably close.  Six and four is ten, they might cl- be open two hours, and then the other two hours they just go home.  And Georgie at the time it was, it was open, and, and it was very seldom closed, ah, it, I- I can't remember that it was ever closed, ah, I think they one ti-, well, they closed Christmas Day, they don't- didn't open Christmas Day, but Christmas Eve they were open..

V: How were things on Christmas Eve?
G: Well... not too many people 'round.  [laughs]

V: And the police never gave it any trouble?
G: There was never anybody in there, uh, there was no drugs in there. People would smoke up, I think, people brought, you know smokes in, in there and smoked up.

V: Do you mean marijuana?
G: Marijuana and, and hash, yeah, I'm sure, but nobody ever complained, or nobody ever... no, the police never ever come in. And there was never any fires there, I think one time the alarm went off, everybody scampered around and got their clothes on and got out of there as fast as they could, coz they didn't want the firemen to see them, but it was a false alarm I guess, and then they didn't come back, I guess, we lost a lot of business that night.  See, if somebody came in late, like one- ah, if somebody came in at say, twelve o'clock, the person, the owner might, give them half price, like, I can't remember that was, fifteen dollars? I can't... (V: If this guy came in late...) Yeah, he mighta onl- charg- give him fiv- charged five dollars, or ten dollars. It was fifteen or twenty, I think it was fifteen dollars, wasn't it?

V: It became fifteen dollars, maybe eighteen dollars for a room.
G: Yah.  I mostly didn't bother with the room, I - too busy doing other things I didn't- have time to ... 

V: Where would you conduct your nefarious activities?
G: Down there, down in- in the sauna, or in orgy room, or sometimes up in someone's room, yeah. I enjoyed the room thing. I, I enjoyed being behind closed doors, and sometimes, as a, a, just one-to-one, or sometimes a mutual, like da- uh, a, threesome. But, not very often, because the rooms weren't very big.  They weren't big enough to swing a cat, that  was it.

V: Was there ever any hint of violence or unpleasantness where someone had to be put out?
G: No... they would.. someone used to sniff poppers and pass out, a couple of 'em passed out because it was so warm in there. And they sniffed poppers til they, well, they just collapsed, I mean, you know, once they got a little air, well then they was alright for.. you know, conscious, with water on their forehead [???that]. But nobody ever, you know, had to be put out. They never allowed anybody that was in there that was really drunk, or anybody that was really intoxicated they just said, ah, "We're filled up" or, ah, "We're gonna be closin' soon" or something like that. If somebody come and in they were, you know, belligerent or whatever, then that person just said, "We're gonna close soon, we're gonna close soon," they just didn't want them in there.  They had had trouble with, uh, people comin' along the street and urinatin' in the doorway, there was a little alleyway there, one, one day the owner, he sai- he heard a noise outside and went out and looked and, apparently somebody musta hit a cat at one point, and the cat was on the sidewalk, and the owner came and, and picked it up and, and, uh put it in a box and called the SPC, and they came and picked it up and of course it was, it was dead.

V: You mean, a car hit it.
G: Yes, a car hit it and then, s- the owner went, he heard a noise outside, and, like, bangin' on the door ... 

V: Was this the last owner?
G: Yeah, and ah, he opened the door quickly and the guy was pissin' [laughs] and he saw what he had, he said, "I'm sorry" said, "Well, you know you shouldn't be- urinatin' here in the doorway, this is not a toilet."

V: Oh, he was urinating at the entrance to the Apollo.  (G: yeah, in the doorway) So what happened there?
G: Well, he, well he moved on then, but ah, and there was a girl one time went in there and.. squatted and, uh, the person opened the door and [laughs] hit her on the bum!  And she said, "Jesus Christ!" she said, "What's goin' on here?" sh- ca- he says, "What's goin' on here," he says, "what do you think this is?" he said, "This is not a toilet. Go somewhere else and use a toilet. Go to the bar, not- don't use this place." See, some of the, some of the businesses downtown put up iron gates so th- so they couldn't go in there and urinate. They'd still piss in, in there, they'd stand out in the street and piss, piss through the bars!

V: So, the police never gave it any trouble, and how do you explain that?
G: I don't know there was no... there was never any trouble to be- nobody went in there and caused any trouble.  Some people might have been- not allowed to come in... 

V: One time, I asked the last owner, that one time a lady policeperson came in and asked very sweetly, "What is this place, anyway?"  and the owner said, "Well, it's a gay men's health sauna."  And so she just said, "Oh!" and walked out.
G: That happened quite a lot with tourists comin in there. They thought it was a bar, said, "Is this a bar?" and said, "Oh, no, this is a gay- " and they said- he- he'd say, person would say, "Oh no, this a mens, this is a gay men's bar, gay men's sauna." 

V: Would he say "gay"?
G: He'd say "gay", he'd say "gay" to some of 'em. He'd say, "It's a gay men's so- sauna."  And they'd say, "Oh."  And, uh, and uh, the guy was with a woman, and he said, uh, he said, "Maybe I should come in."  and she said, "Like hell you are." Like, the woman who was with him said, "Like hell you are." and then drug him.... ah, y'kn- sort of moved him on. 'Coz he said, he would say that just to antagonize her, just to see what she would say. 

V: There's one more section, G, should we go on?
G: Might as well.

V: This final section concerning your senior years in Halifax.  You've lived here for a long, long time.
G: Well, since '60.  I don't think- I don't think, I- I came in November of '60, so I don't think that I did any, I wasn't- I didn't go out rootin' around then. I did- I wasn't really gay then, I didn't think I was gay.  I think it was in '61 is when I, when I started to.... cruise the streets.

V: :But you had no attraction to women.
G: No, no. I went to work, and that's all, I mean, I never .. and went out in the daytime but never went around... 

V: But you'd get yourself off.
G: Well, I don't remember if I even did that.  See I was in s- I was sharing with my brother at that point.

V: You recently lost your longtime partner. How has this loss affected your life generally?
G: Well, I think the- I think the first year - this happened 2006 - the first year I would say, that ah... things changed, I.. I didn't feel as sexually active at that time, at.. at.. not as much. I mean I still had the regular people comin' here but I.. I- I- spent a lot of time to myself. And I've had company, who, and these people said, that I was changed, I- I- wouldn't do anything, I wouldn't go downtown, I wouldn't go... amongst crowds and anything, it's just that I didn't want to be in crowds, I just- I guess it was my way of grieving. I didn't grieve openly, but I grieved inside, I guess.  And I, I, ah, you know, it took quite a bit out of - out of me because, havin' somebody around for forty-some years, forty-two years, it, ah, I guess it was upsetting, and I- it was always- it was lots of memories around here, and I mean I didn't ... dwell on it, but I - and I got out as much as I could, but I didn't want to be in cr- I didn't want to be in crowds, I didn't want to go to the shopping centre, I didn't want to go downtown, I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna go where there was any crowds, like the Buskers and everything, and, ah, and you know they said, and different people had said that, the next year they said, I'm back to my ol- old self. And it's just that I guess that it was my way of grieving.

V: How long did you feel that way, G?
G: Well I.. I.. I fou... I fel... afte- afte- well, uh, right after he passed away.  And then, you know, I just realized that I can't just sit here and mope, and I- of course I kept busy, see it was, it was, um, ahh.. he passed away in April, so, it was a g-  of last year, it was a good way for me to do things, so I started gardening and doin' things outside, and doing the things I normally always did, gardening and doing all kinds of things like that and I, just kept busy, you know and.. and.. ah, time didn't go- it wasn't long, and I had my computer, and I read my newspapers, and read my emails and things like that and, and, ah, so I just, y'know and I haven't been lonely and everybody says, "God, if I was with someone that long I'd be so depressed."  "Well," I said, "why be depressed, you can't- you know, that person's gone, you can't bring that person back. You've got to- y'know, life has to go on."

V: Would you say that your sexual activity and interests didn't disappear or reduce, would you say they contributed to your mental health?
G: They did, they did probably.  I- I- I think that, I think that - I can't remember how long after he was dead that I had no desire to do anything (V: sexually) yeah, sexually, and I can't remember, coz I remember people callin', sometimes I wouldn't even answer the phone, I just didn't want to bother with some of 'em. And then he'd show up at the door, and, I wouldn't let them in, or if, ah, I was outside, course I had to, say that I was busy and I'd... I just don't feel up to it, I'm not - feeling very well, grieve still- still grieving over [G accidentally names his lover] uh... his death. [V: Forget it it's not important.]

V: For a while you didn't want to have any sexual activity; how long did it take to gradually come back to it?
G: Oh, I don't know, I would say... I'd say... I can't... I can't.. I can't recall.

V: Because I've known you through that period, and you've been sexually active throughout that.
G: Yeah.   It's hard to say... I.. I... I just can't recall, uh, the, uh, the.. time, and.. and.. and how long it took, I don't.. I didn't remember but.. it certainly wasn't six months I...  I don't really know.

V: The essential effects of this loss were that you lost interest in sex for a time, that you turned into yourself for a bit, but that you went out..
G: But like I said, I didn't want to be in crowds. (V: can you explain that?) Well, I just didn't ... I .. I don't know, I just didn't.. ahh.. y'know, normally I'd go down to the Buskers and I'd go down on the wharf and I'd have no interest in doing  that. I just didn't, I just wanted to stay home I guess, I... I guess I was too protective of the house.  There was always somebody here in the house, and if I went out, went downtown I knew he was here, and, ah, I guess I was bein' too protective to the house, I mean, I can't... (V: you mean after he died) Yes.

V: Were you affected ..
G: Not mentally or physically.  Emotionally, probably.

V: And he himself realized that he was going to die.
G: Oh yeah, he knew, and he didn't... say too much to me, but he told quite a few other people, coz they had told me that he-they told him, he told them that .. it was only a matter of time that he wasn't going to be around, but I mean I- at the hospital they told me a lot it... and they told me right in front of him, that hi- his time is, is slip- is coming, that he won't be with us any more, and he kinda broke down, he kind of, ah, reached out, kinda took my hand and squeezed it and, and, sort of, ah... [sucking sound through teeth] y'know, says, "look aft-" he said, "look aft-" [laughs] he said, "look after Claude" - that's his cat, and I said "I'll look after Claude" coz he thought that I might get rid of Claude, well I wouldn't get rid of Claude, he was a nice cat, I w- if he was a cat that was bitin' and scratchin' and doin' all kinds of bad things, I don't know if I'd-a kep him but, coz, ah....

V: How long did that gesture take place before your partner died?  Did he die soon after that?
G: It was soon after that, yeah, it was probably like, the next day or so, yeah.

V: And he had a peaceful...
G: Oh yeah, a peaceful passing, I was right there at the foot of the bed. He... he, ah, I s-- he could hardly move his hands coz he had so much fluid in his, ah, in his body? and his arms and legs and hands? And, ah, he was sittin' at the foot of the bed and I said, ah, (V: He was sititing at the foot of the bed?) He was, I was sitting at the foot of the bed, my brother and I was sittin' at the foot of the bed, and he had his head raised up a bit, I rai- I put his head up a little bit, and, ah [sucking sound through teeth] I said to him, ah, oh I said, "G'bye" or some- I said, "Hi" and he made his hand go up and down like that, and then he just passed away just like that.  Just like saying, "Goodbye," and he just, moved his hand up and down and, passed away.

V: That's lovely, isn't it (G: yeah .. yeah) that's a comfort to you, would you say?
G: That's true, and my brother was there at the time so he, he had seen it, but my brother couldn't realize, didn't realized that... he had seen him two weeks before that, he had, brother had gone to Ottawa, and..  well, he wasn't too bad, he was still in bed, he was in bed upstairs, but he said he never expected he was gonna pass away, a day after he got home here, coz he got home on a Friday and ... and .. my partner passed away on, on Saturday.  So, with the help of my brother, and then my friend from New Brunswick came over, ah.. this.. I.. I was grieving, but I was, I.. y'know so many things to try to think about with.. writing up an obituary to try to remember everything, and, ah, it was a lot of ah, tear- eh- makin'- uh, I don't know... we must- we musta writ- we musta written over the obituary about five times before we got, before we got correct, y'know what was.. coz'.. and we STILL left out som- a few things.  And then there was other writeups from other people besides, that wasn't in the paper

V: Did he express himself to you about your long years together, about your relationship before he passed away?
G: No, he, he was supposed to have said to a lady, "I'm sorry that I put Cecil in this, in this mess." and, ah, that was the financial mess, yeah, so... yeah.. but I mean in the end it, ah, I didn't haveta, I didn't have to go good for the financial mess because it's y'know, this, ah, oh, I had lawyers lookin after that and everything's straightened out and.. so I didn't- because my name wasn't on the, on the documents, I- I didn't have to, I didn't have to pay for the..  the financial part of it . 

V: So his debts, you didn't have to go good for. 
G: His credit debts.

V: So the end of the relationship had a certain grace to it (G: Oh yes, definitely) and so there was some comfort to you in that.

V: What are your concerns as a senior gay man? Do have health concerns now that affect your life as a gay man?
G: No, I have, I- my health- I'm in good health, I'm- I keep active, I, I, I walk a lot, I, ah, work in the, I do gardening, I walk down- I walk everywhere practically, and I have walked up to Seaview Park, and, and ah, picked blackberries here for, one day for six hours, well I'm not- I'm not sure I picked blackberries for six hours, but I... took an hour to.. probably two hours, two hours of that would have been walking.  It takes an hour to get up and and and hour to get back, and then another time I walked one way and then got driven back, but, ah,.. I walk everywhere.

V: Do you have ANY concerns about a senior gay man? Your life, about death eventually or..
G: I, I ah, no. And that ah, I guess I'm seventy- in, y'know I'm in my seventies and I, I don't know, I don't, probably don't feel that I'm seventies. I guess people in seventies are walkin' around with canes and wheelchairs, and... and I.. and as long as my health is good, I... I'm not, ah, I'm not worrying about it. I'm not even thinking about death. I'm not- I know I'm not going to live forever, I'm a- I may live to be a hundred, and I may not.  I may live to be.. I- y'know, my partner was seventy- he would have been seventy-two, and this year he'd be seventy-three, if he was a live, but, ah, and I - it's only a year's difference in our ages, and, um,... telling my age.

V: Well, you're 71 now, aren't you.
G: Yeah, 71 years old.

V: You've pretty much been a religious gay man, and specifically a Christian.  How has your religious life developed over this long time, and how does your being gay relate to it?
G: Well, I don't really- like.. uh, nobody in the family, that I'm aware of, knows I'm gay, they certainly must know, not married and not, uh, don't have a woman and, lived with a guy for forty-some years, they must think something, and, uh, I guess I don't use religion, uh, I don't use my sexuality for religion, for religious purposes but, uh, [sucking sound through teeth] uuhh.. well I mean, I- yah, go to the Metropolitan Church, which is, the gay church, it's, for the gay men and.. trangend- transgender and.. uh.. lesbian and... whatever it's, y'know who I mean, the term, I can't remember.

V: But you're a friend of that church, not a member (G: Friend of the chu- not a member) And why are you a friend of it, not a member?
G: I'm a friend- er- because, I don't wanna become a member, if you come- become a member then you gotta be on the board of directors and you have-a that.. lot of extra responsibilities and I don't feel that I want to do theirs responsibilities.  I don't feel that I got enough, ah, [sucking sound through teeth] I'm- I'm not a type of person that speaks out very easily. I don't talk a lot, you know, I'm quiet, and I, I help out.  I'll do anyth- I'll help out in any way, but I'm not- I don't wanna be on the- I don't wanna be a member of the church.  I'll do anything for the church, but I'm not, I d- I'm not interested in being a member.

V: So you still feel a deep commitment to it as a friend
G: oh yes, yes, as a friend.  And I, and I go to St David's Church, I still, I still, I usually try to go once a month, now I- I'm na- I can't go this, this month, because now there's two things goin' on, this special service on Sunday, and then next Sunday we're hope to have a service in Veith House, so I probably won't get to St David's until the, in the, in October. I would go- I go one Sunday, and I used to go, I used to go one Sunday a month when we had our sp-- we we had a morning and a- when we had an evening service at St David's, you see then I could go in the morning to St David's church, but now we only have, we only have morning services at the Safe Harbour, so I can only go to Safe Harbour once a month.  I wan- I wanted [sucking sound through teeth] St DAVID'S, once a month, but the other three Sundays then I go to Safe Harbour.

V: So are you a member of St David's?
G: No, I'm not a member, just a.. (V: So you're a friend of St David's) St David's, yeah, and I keep in there because that's where my partner was the organist and, ah, I, ah, and I know all, I know a lot of the people in the church and they always speak to me and they always welcome me or hug me or... glad to see me and.. chat and.. talk about gardening and all the oth..

V: And do they know you're gay, would you say?
G: I.. I would.. think that some of 'em do. But.. (V: It would be hard to think otherwise) Yes. 

V: And how do the ministers there treat you?
G: He- he's- they're nice, and the minister was good with me when I.. when we had arranged for the funeral and everything.  He's friendly.

V: Your partner was cremated after his death.
G: Yes. (V: There was no viewing or anything like that) No viewing, no.  Well we just- we had a little memorial s- we had a memorial gathering beforehand, an hour before the service, in the church, we didn't do that in the hall, someone said, "Well, why don't you do that in the hall?" and I said, "Well why not do it in the church?" so we did it from 1 to 2 and the service ...

[END OF TAPE]